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fuzzion
Philips Hue and IKEA Trådfri

Has anyone successfully connected a IKEA trådfri lamp to a Philips Hue bridge (EU version)?
The products are using ZigBee Light Link (ZLL) protocol for communication according to response from IKEA themselves.

I did not manage to get the bridge (v2) detect the lamp.

There is a thread about this on the SmartThings forum.
https://community.smartthings.com/t/ikea-tradfri/59229/4

Another user writes this:
I tried to pair a IKEA tradfri to my hue bridge 2.0 without success.

    reset IKEA tradfri ok
    turned off all other bulbs / removed power
    Issued "{ “touchlink” : true }" to API
    searched for new devices with the API and IKEA lamp physicaly 1cm apart from the bridge

The IKEA tradfri dims up and down a couple of times when de search is active but nothing more and no new devices.

Could the "Friends of Hue" maybe help us?

Hueman

Any clues?

Developers Support
Philips Hue and IKEA Trådfri

Hi,

Thanks for the post.

Do you have the statement of IKEA that they are ZLL compliant? We can't find anything on their website or productsheets. If it was a personal email with IKEA and you would like to share it, please use philipshuedev@philips.com 

Neither can we find IKEA on the ZigBee Alliance member website: http://www.zigbee.org/zigbeealliance/our-members/

Thanks in advanced.

Hue Developer Support - Niek

fuzzion
Hi Niek,

Hi Niek,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I also think it is strange that there is no information about IKEA on the ZigBee website.
I have forwarded the email from IKEA to you.
Best Regards,
fuzzion

robin.61@gmail.com
Hi,

Hi,

 

Yes they are using ZLL: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/116079/ikea-begint-in-oktober-verkoop-schake...

It was actually possible to pair them with the hue bridge. But only with an old firmware. It looks like the new firmware is blocking them (along with other 3rd party bulbs).

Is is confirmed by other people as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcBp3wamIU0

pacman42
The timing is indicating that

The timing is indicating that Philips has upgraded the Hue Bridge to prevent IKEA from selling lights to current Hue customers. I really hope this is a coincident, especially based on that they needed to back out from this blockage of third party products earlier. I am eagerly waiting for the new firmware version where this limitation is removed, it just has to come!

dijkdj
Hope this is not the same

Hope this is not the same move Philips did earlier this year. Is there a way to revert firmware?

robin.61@gmail.com
Author of previous video just

Author of previous video just posted a new video proving that Ikea bulbs are working with previous bridge versions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21OEd9i7_zA&t=0s

pacman42
The answer to this issue is

The answer to this issue is available in this thread :
http://www.developers.meethue.com/content/trouble-cree-bulb

Let us just hope that they are quick this time. Why not send out the old firmware while waiting for an updated one?

fuzzion
The old firmware does not

The old firmware does not support the motion sensor

tihi
It worked before i patched so

It worked before i patched so i hope it will be fixed soon. 

kippewit
Let's hope there will be an

Let's hope there will be an update soon which will allow us to connect IKEA Tradfri. I don't mind buying Hue (I have 6 color bulbs, 12 white bulbs, 2 taps and 2 dimmers, and I plan on buying quite some motion sensors) but as long as they don't offer E14 and just a white version of the GU10 bulb, we'll have to rely on other brands.

Pautomate
Hoping for an update too

Picked up a light at Ikea yesterday and am too looking forward to the update!

Developers Support
Firmware update

Hi all,

The glitch (and so the fix) is limited to Cree bulbs. However we are testing a sample of other 3rd party bulbs to verify they are not affected.

About IKEA bulbs: The new IKEA bulbs cannot be connected to the Philips Hue bridge because they don’t respond in the expected way for a ZigBee compatible product. There is no intention to block any third-party bulbs using ZigBee Light Link from working with the Philips Hue system.

Hue Developer Support - Niek

pacman42
But if IKEA's bulbs worked

But if IKEA's bulbs worked with an earlier version of the software (as indicated by people here), why was that in that case?

And if IKEA's bulbs won't work anymore, then you have changed the 3rd party support, in contrast to what you are saying that your policy is.

Not that I have any IKEA bulbs my-self yet, but I was buying my Philips Hue based on reports that IKEA lights were to be compatible and did not return it based on reports that it actually worked. And now it might not work anyway?

Pautomate
I was actually going to ask

I was actually going to ask the same question as pacman42. Bought both a Tradfri-lamp and a Philips Hue 2.0 this weekend based on reports that it had been working and that Ikea has posted on the Facebook page that they're using the same Zigbee standard as the Hue. Would it just not be possible to roll back whatever was changed in the most recent firmware?

driesken
Was wondering the exact same

Was wondering the exact same thing as pacman42 and Pautomate.

I won't spend €50 on a Philips Bridge if there is functionality breakdown for any kind of bulbs that have worked before.

Developers Support
All,

All,

We have noted that very early versions of our Philips Hue bridge firmware, released before April 2015, allows the new IKEA lights to connect. We are continuing to evaluate this situation in accordance with our interpretation of ZigBee Light Link, but there is no intention to block any third-party bulbs using ZigBee Light Link from working with the Philips Hue system.

Hue Developer Support - Niek

Olov
I'm happy to hear that you're

I'm happy to hear that you're not intending to block third-party bulbs.
When can we expect an update or more information on this matter?

pacman42
I asked IKEA about this and

I asked IKEA about this and they said that they are working together with Philips on how to solve this.

Don't hesitate to ask IKEA support about it, more pressure might give a better result?

driesken
Good to hear! Will also

Good to hear! Will also contact IKEA support next week since I have just bought 3 Ikea Floalt lamps.

Hopefully some colored Hues afterwards :)

frahlg
+1

 

I have also a setup at home with HUE bridge and about 5 HUE lamps and strips, and it would be great if IKEAs new lamps could work with the HUE bridge. As IKEA is a large player in this field I am certain that Philips would benefit a lot from this as people would still need to buy a HUE bridge even though they only intend to buy IKEA-lamps.

 

 

lcorsini
Well it seems that the bridge

Well it seems that the bridge finds the bulb even with the latest (Feb 2017) firmware if you issue a touchlink command, but I it stops there, so the bulbs are zigbee, isn't there a way for you to whitelist, or add some kind of support for this kind of bulb?

davle
Progress

Is there any progress on this issue?

ZeHamster
Would also like to know if

Would also like to know if there is any news on this issue, i have the IKEA lamps and a HUE Bridge and it would be nice if they worked together. Phillips have a good position here since IKEA does not seem to have a clear launch date for their more advanced solution for controlling the lights. I dont really have an issue with buying Phillips lights also but it seems like most home interior lights these days have an E14 socket. 

Developers Support
Philips Hue and IKEA Trådfri

Hi all,

There is no update and you will hear from us when there is an update.

Hue Developer Support - Niek

Johan.S
Update....

Does the new update include Ikea trådfri lamps connection?

stefan@trimmat.se
Don't seem like it. I bought

Don't seem like it. I bought a Ikea tråfri kit with button yesterday and also installed the new fw on my v1 Hue gateway (could not bybass the FW upgrade in the app?) and after that tried to find the Ikea bulb but didn't find it. Or are you really required to have the bulb close to the bridge when pairing? 

padalada
Does not work with firmware 01036562

Two days ago I bought a Philips Hue Bridge v2 just to get some extra functionality for my IKEA Trådfri light bulbs. Neither I could bypass the firmware upgrade in the app and ended up with latest version (01036562). I could not get the bridge to find my IKEA light bulbs although I had the bridge within 1cm of the bulb. Today I returned the bridge. If it would be compatible I could see myself buying one again.

frahlg
Seems to get some form of connection...

I have not managed to get any connection when pairing from the official Hue-app on my iPhone. But then I tried the "Hue Lights"-app, and then I could choose an option called "Touchlink". Some form of pairing started (the app reported "Success", and the IKEA lamp started to blink. But it didn't work out at last anyway as the lamp never got added.

stevew817
Not adhering to the standard... Or are they?

Just looking at the evidence here... 
According to the Zigbee Light Link spec (ZLL, 1), which as we all know Hue implements, devices must pass certification first before they are eligible to apply for getting a so-called 'master key'. This is also elsewhere confirmed (2).

Without this master key, a device is not capable of connecting to a commercially-available ZLL (and thus Hue) network (1). The fact that the Ikea bulbs can pair and operate using earlier versions of the Hue bridge (3, and my own experience) means these devices contain the master key, and thus must have passed certification. This must have happened pretty recently (my guess is sometime this summer, considering Ikea had these bulbs in-store by early October(4)).

Considering both Hue and IKEA Trådfri have passed ZLL certification, there is a fundamental level of compatibility asserted, and if Hue were to adhere to that, there should be no problem at all linking and using these bulbs. What Developers Support said about 'our interpretation of Zigbee Light Link' is therefore irrelevant, since there is no room for interpretation when both devices have been certified.

This leaves the possibility of Hue (actively or passively) blocking (some, or all unknown) third-party ZLL-certified lights from being added to their gateway product. While this is certainly not 'in the spirit' of the ZLL program, there is nothing that actually prevents them from doing so, and the ball is in their court. I guess we can only hope that this gets resolved by a Hue update soon so that this situation doesn't torpedo ZLL as an interoperable standard.

I will be holding off on updating my firmware for as long as possible.

(1) http://www.zigbee.org/zigbee-for-developers/applicationstandards/zigbee-...
(2) https://e2e.ti.com/support/wireless_connectivity/zigbee_6lowpan_802-15-4...
(3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21OEd9i7_zA&t=0s
(4) http://contentroom.ikea.today/behind-the-scenes/smart-lighting/s/c054308...

fuzzion
Comments

Philips Hue Dev has previously responded:
"The new IKEA bulbs cannot connect to the Hue bridge because they don’t respond in the expected way for a ZigBee compatible product."

IKEA has previously responded:
"We are working together with Philips to see what it is that makes them do not work together,
the answer we received is that Philips has made its own small change that makes that not all lights based on ZigBee Light Link can't connect.
Our goal is that in the future we'll get them to work out together."

Still waiting for a comment from the VP of Technology at ZigBee Alliance regarding this.

bgamoritz
Waiting for an update

I´m eagerly awaiting an update on this issue. I would be happy to start using Hue if I would know that I can use 3rd party bulbs as well.

tihi
Me to

This feels like the old OSRAM debate. Very sketchy when it used to work fine and with the stroke of a patch dosent.

Developers Support
Philips Hue and IKEA Trådfri

Hi all,

Our team did some research and below is their statement:

Philips Hue has been designed as an open system. This is why the Philips Hue bridge implements the ZigBee Light Link standard, that makes it possible for ZigBee Light Link compliant third party bulbs to connect to the Philips Hue bridge. The new IKEA Smart Lighting bulbs do not respond in the way we expect from a ZigBee Light Link compatible product and can therefore not be connected to the Philips Hue bridge.

Hue Developer Support - Niek

stevew817
Standard flawed - workaround needed

bulbs do not respond in the way we expect

 In a decent standard, there is no "we expect". There is only "is expected by the standard". If the ZLL spec left something open to interpretation that breaks compatibility, then there is something seriously wrong with the standard and/or the certification process (which should, by the way, contain an interoperability test).

Obviously, it is easier for Philips to patch this in a bridge update and account for both 'interpretations' of the standard (considering the bulbs are in fact confirmed to work with an old version of the bridge firmware) then it is to update the bulb's firmware (seeing there is no known method of updating IKEA's bulbs at this time). In the interest of the entire ZLL ecosystem, I personally think it would be wise to do that.

frahlg
+1

I totally agree on what stevew817 said. IKEA is really big, and when they are releasing smart bulbs they will soon be the new “standard” as they are selling to the ordinary not very tech-savy people. IKEA has stated that the ambition is to only sell smart bulbs in the near future [1], and I think they will succeed. Remember how they phased in LED lights years before everyone else…? They are now since several years only selling LEDs. It will very soon be the other way around, that “Philips is not compatible with IKEA”, rather than “IKEA not compatible with Philips”.

 

[1] "Målet är att Trådfri ska vara billigast på marknaden. Även om Björn Block inte vill säga var det landar vid lanseringen i oktober är förhoppningen att tekniken ska vara så billig att det om ett antal år inte finns några ”dumma” lampor kvar i sortimentet." 

"...within a few years there are no "dumb" bulbs left."

http://www.elektroniktidningen.se/index.php/nyheter/62125-ikeas-led-lampor-inkoers-port-till-det-smarta-hemmet

Johan.S
This sucks big time. Actually

This sucks big time. Actually i don´t care if my lamps are called IKEA or Philips.....i just need lamps with E14 sockets.

jperss10
Dealbreaker

My expectations was high on solving this but it seems like Philips has no interest in doing so.
Off course it's cool to dim my E27 bulbs up'n down but thats all there is.
How many lamps does use E27, not many. Almost every other lamps i have use E14!
So now im stuck with this and it sucks.
Just because Philips want's us to buy  their bulbs and not Ikea's cheaper ones.

ElviraL
IKEA will soon sell their own

IKEA will soon sell their own "briidge", before summer.

fuzzion
IKEA bridge

According to responses from IKEA, they will not provide an open API for their bridge in the current situation.

luc.ass
It is really crazy how any

It is really crazy how any company can choose to close their system when on the other hand telling users that they are trying to cooperate with as many other manufacturers as possible. This is not what home automation is about, Philips.

I have no doubt, that people will be RUNNING away from Philips as soon as IKEA releases a bridge that is able to connect to bulbes from Philips, Osram, Cree and others. I myself will. And this will probably even happen if the bulbs are supported by then because you have let down your users to many times.

Please Philips: Be the pioneer you were beofre. Try to bring home-automation to the masses. Listen to your power users.

Cheers, Lucas

tihi
Agree

I have 10 philips hue bulbs and love them! But the way this is going I will start to phase them out, being bound to one company does not feels like a road i want to walk.

Im a developer myself and the ikea-bulbs worked with a previous version of the Hue-bridge so i dont give much for Philips respons.

Please please Philips, be the good guy here!

vandrew75
IKEA Smart lights

Hi, 

I did a test of discovering the lights, functionality might not be there.

OSRAM lightify hub: IKEA (YES), Hue (YES), WEMO (YES)

Philips Hue Bridge v2: IKEA (NO), WEMO (NO), LIGHTIFY (YES)

WEMO Hub: IKEA (NO), LIGHTIFY (YES), HUE (NO)

 

Based on the facts, it seems that each company defines whom their hubs and bridge they like it to work with. Basically, this only affects the end user because there is no one hub that covers all. So the Zigbee alliance failed. By doing this cripples the competition of making better lights for the consumer. 

 

DariBer
How did you add IKEA Tradfri

How did you add IKEA Tradfri bulbs to the Osram Lightify Gateway (home)? When I try I can't even see them when I search for them in the Lightify iPhone app. 

Developers Support
Philips Hue and IKEA Trådfri

Hi all,

The non-interoperability between the newly launched IKEA smart lighting products and the Philips Hue bridge has been analyzed. One of the issues found is that the IKEA bulbs report their ProfileID as corresponding to the ZigBee Home Automation (ZHA) profile rather than the ZigBee Light Link (ZLL) profile. As the IKEA bulbs do not behave fully compliant with the ZLL standard, they are rejected by the Hue bridge. IKEA is aware of this and informed us their intent is to have the IKEA smart lighting bulbs to work with the Philips Hue bridge. We offer our support to realize this in the future.

Hopefully the above information helps you understanding the current situation.

Hue Developer Support - Niek

harrowiersma
hi Niek,

hi Niek,

would this mean that the Hue Hub will be updated to accept ZHA connections? This would be the easiest solution as the current Ikea bulbs cannot be changed/updated?

according to some other online source (smartthings community):

"Any ZLL device is supposed to, per the standard, be able to "fall back" To ZHA if paired to a ZHA coordinator" 

as the older firmware supported the ZHA connections it might be a small(er) thing to alter?

fuzzion
Thanks for the information

Thanks for the information Niek!

spacesloth0x
Hi,

Hi,

First of all, it's good to see a proper (technical) reply on this matter.

Could you tell us what the current status from Philips' side is? Have you been asked for support yet? Out of curiousity, (because the IKEA smart lamps did work with an older firmware) how did the bridge handle the ZHA ProfileIDs before and what was changed in the bridge firmware that broke the compatibility?

zanoii
 

 

No news on this?

I'm also interested in the questions spacesloth0x is asking.

Sledde
Hello Niek 

Hello Niek 

Is there any update regarding this issue? I have read a lot of info from Ikea and they say that they are using ZLL standard. The only place I have found info that they are using ZHA is here. I'm having a hard time beleaving that this is all Ikea's fault. 

But soon they will release their hub and I hope theirs will be able to controle HUE lights and many other brands, but time will see. Maybe Ikea will lock out other brands as well. 

 

BR

Sledde

sportylasse
Philips Hue and IKEA Trådfri

Thanks for the clarification.

//Lars

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